I’m inclined to consider regrets of this sort to be incoherent, rather than misguided.
A sketch:
let’s first separate passing regrets from substantive regrets. I might regret not taking an umbrella this morning when I end up caught in rain. But that’s not what you’re talking about, I take it. I take regret in the sense that you mean here to be substantive.
Regrets also necessarily stand out to oneself in some way.
Taken together, regrets as (1) non-trivial and (2) existentially conspicuous, such phenomenon are just the sorts of things that one can’t cleanly distinguish from the natural flow of one’s general form of life.
So for example: I regret not grabbing that umbrella this morning makes sense in a direct way; Olivia regretting staying with this jackass for a given period of time only makes sense if we (a) consider this time a collection of discrete events not in some way greater than the sum of their parts and (b) excuse or abstract away any number of self-attributes that caused her to behave in the way that she did over a substantial period of time - let’s call them X. Imagine living in Seattle, and listening to your coworker “regret forgetting to grab the umbrella” every single morning 37 times in a row during rainy season. You’d be justifiably ready to slap him by the second week. But this is not at all how we react toward others caught in a mode of a more substantive regret. In fact, we behave in the opposite way - with compassion and care, sometimes bordering on enabling. Why?
I think we sense that criticism of such behavior cuts too close to the bone, in a sense. After a certain point, we can’t separate the behavior from the person’s identity, and the attribution of responsibility gets murky.
Taken to an extreme, it sounds almost vulgar: Olivia was with this person because she should have been - her X-ness simply made so. (Aside - isn’t it curious how the totalizing, latently tragic power of regret hinges on its abductive certainty?)
And so what does regret on this level even mean? I’m inclined to believe that regrets of this sort are at best incoherent (attribute-wise) and at worst a sort of denial-of-self (holistically).
As such, regret gets in the way of figuring out whatever X is and dissolving it from within, given one’s will, propensity, etc.
I've read something similar by Caplan, I just don't think you should have no regrets because if it weren't for them you would not have the kids you love. This is for the basic reason that if you did not have those regrets because you did not make the mistakes you would probably still have kids who you would love equally as much. So you can really have regrets as a parent and wish they were not made because the counter factual is kids you would love just as much. Sure, you might actually love them less, but you might actually love them more too, I imagine it all comes out in the wash.
Right, but when you’re doing the counterfactual, being contented isn’t what matters to you—what matters to you is that you love them in particular. And regretting the past—in the sense of wishing for your own sake that it hasn’t taken place—entails wishing that the people you love wouldn’t be in your life. So, it’s rational not to wish that the past had been different, given that what matters to you is that you get to live the particular people you do.
Okay. The main reason people love their kids is because they are the ones they have brought into the world and then raised. It's mostly down to the endowment effect, i.e., what people have or had they are especially fond of. So, for the moment, I can admit I see the case for not having any regrets after you have kids and have had them in existence for a time. Though in you example Olivia can have regrets about her university experience for the ten years she does not have children because the counter factual of children are on average all as good as each other. So from the point of view of a mother in the future she can have no regrets, but, from that fact (which I still question), you cannot say now she can have no regrets because of that future view, because, that future view will be the same irrespective of the regrets.
And to me it just seems implausible that having children can eliminate all your regrets in life up to that point.
I think the thought experiment works out well if and only if one does then find a good place in life. That justification for no-regrets does not have an answer to the truly tragic life
Hey. That thing you just said about angels and rain. Please don’t say that ever again. Thanks.
if you read the patristics it's all there
I’m inclined to consider regrets of this sort to be incoherent, rather than misguided.
A sketch:
let’s first separate passing regrets from substantive regrets. I might regret not taking an umbrella this morning when I end up caught in rain. But that’s not what you’re talking about, I take it. I take regret in the sense that you mean here to be substantive.
Regrets also necessarily stand out to oneself in some way.
Taken together, regrets as (1) non-trivial and (2) existentially conspicuous, such phenomenon are just the sorts of things that one can’t cleanly distinguish from the natural flow of one’s general form of life.
So for example: I regret not grabbing that umbrella this morning makes sense in a direct way; Olivia regretting staying with this jackass for a given period of time only makes sense if we (a) consider this time a collection of discrete events not in some way greater than the sum of their parts and (b) excuse or abstract away any number of self-attributes that caused her to behave in the way that she did over a substantial period of time - let’s call them X. Imagine living in Seattle, and listening to your coworker “regret forgetting to grab the umbrella” every single morning 37 times in a row during rainy season. You’d be justifiably ready to slap him by the second week. But this is not at all how we react toward others caught in a mode of a more substantive regret. In fact, we behave in the opposite way - with compassion and care, sometimes bordering on enabling. Why?
I think we sense that criticism of such behavior cuts too close to the bone, in a sense. After a certain point, we can’t separate the behavior from the person’s identity, and the attribution of responsibility gets murky.
Taken to an extreme, it sounds almost vulgar: Olivia was with this person because she should have been - her X-ness simply made so. (Aside - isn’t it curious how the totalizing, latently tragic power of regret hinges on its abductive certainty?)
And so what does regret on this level even mean? I’m inclined to believe that regrets of this sort are at best incoherent (attribute-wise) and at worst a sort of denial-of-self (holistically).
As such, regret gets in the way of figuring out whatever X is and dissolving it from within, given one’s will, propensity, etc.
I've read something similar by Caplan, I just don't think you should have no regrets because if it weren't for them you would not have the kids you love. This is for the basic reason that if you did not have those regrets because you did not make the mistakes you would probably still have kids who you would love equally as much. So you can really have regrets as a parent and wish they were not made because the counter factual is kids you would love just as much. Sure, you might actually love them less, but you might actually love them more too, I imagine it all comes out in the wash.
Right, but what matters to you when you love someone isn't that you feel love, but that you love them in particular.
But you would love someone else in particular if you didn't have the regrets too. You would be just as contented.
Right, but when you’re doing the counterfactual, being contented isn’t what matters to you—what matters to you is that you love them in particular. And regretting the past—in the sense of wishing for your own sake that it hasn’t taken place—entails wishing that the people you love wouldn’t be in your life. So, it’s rational not to wish that the past had been different, given that what matters to you is that you get to live the particular people you do.
Okay. The main reason people love their kids is because they are the ones they have brought into the world and then raised. It's mostly down to the endowment effect, i.e., what people have or had they are especially fond of. So, for the moment, I can admit I see the case for not having any regrets after you have kids and have had them in existence for a time. Though in you example Olivia can have regrets about her university experience for the ten years she does not have children because the counter factual of children are on average all as good as each other. So from the point of view of a mother in the future she can have no regrets, but, from that fact (which I still question), you cannot say now she can have no regrets because of that future view, because, that future view will be the same irrespective of the regrets.
And to me it just seems implausible that having children can eliminate all your regrets in life up to that point.
I think the thought experiment works out well if and only if one does then find a good place in life. That justification for no-regrets does not have an answer to the truly tragic life