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Benjamin Hause's avatar

I think I'm convinced by Huemer's reply to Shahar. Huemer argues that at least some people have to make a difference, or you run into a Sorites paradox. So, we can make this argument:

1. If 1 million people give up meat, meat production will decrease by ~1 million portions.

2. The average impact of a person giving up meat is a reduction in production by 1 million portions / 1 million people (from 1).

3. You're not special (you're not more or less likely to trigger a decrease than any other vegetarian) (premise).

4. Your expected impact from giving up meat is a reduction of 1 meat portion produced (from 2, 3).

I'm not as impressed by Crummett's argument. For one, I think pleasure is important. You can't just wave it off, especially when it is being compared against a potentially negligible risk. For two, and relatedly, it proves too much. When comparing tradeoffs, you have to have some estimate of risk, or else you could never do anything risky. But then once you start quantifying the risk, you invite the causal impotency arguments.

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Alex C.'s avatar

First of all, I view the factory-farming issue as a red herring. I'd be opposed to eating animal products even if those animals were treated humanely and killed painlessly. Animals are sentient beings capable of having experiences and preferences, particularly the preference to continue living (which is a drive or instinct that's programmed into them by evolution). The key point isn't about suffering but rather about whether we have the right to end a conscious being's existence unnecessarily. Just as we would consider it wrong to painlessly kill a human who had lived a good life, we should extend this moral consideration to other sentient creatures when we have viable alternatives (i.e., eating a vegan diet).

Second, I'd like to quote a passage from a now-defunct blog written by philosophy professor Keith Burgess-Jackson. Sorry it's a bit long, but I think it accurately describes a valid objection to eating animal products, even if your actions don't affect the supply:

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Suppose you’re inclined to eat meat but wonder about the moral permissibility of doing so. You think it might be wrong, since it requires the confinement and killing of sentient beings, but then it occurs to you that your forbearance won’t make a difference. Why deprive yourself of a simple pleasure when it’s not clear that doing so will save an animal’s life? It seems pointless, fruitless, wasteful, abnegating.

If you look at it this way, you’ll probably continue to eat meat. But there’s another way to look at it. I’ve always thought of morality in terms of personal integrity -- of having high standards and striving mightily to live up to them. Morality, in this view, is more a matter of what one rules out as unthinkable than of what one decides or does. Do I want to participate in an institution that uses animals as resources -- that confines them, deprives them of social lives, frustrates their urges, alters their diets and bodies, and eventually kills them in the prime of their lives? It’s a matter of not getting one’s hands dirty, of not collaborating with evil. Perhaps other people can do these things, I say, but _I_ can’t. I want no part of such a cruel institution. There will be no blood on _my_ hands.

One view of morality sees it as a mechanism of change, with each person being a lever of the mechanism. The other sees it in terms of what sort of person one is. When you hear that billions of animals are killed every year for food, you might think, "My becoming a vegetarian won’t make a difference, so I may as well indulge my tastes." That’s to take the first view. But why not say that what other people do is not up to you? You control your actions. Your actions reflect _your_ moral values and what sort of person _you_ are. Stand up for something. Say "These things go on, but they do not go on through me!" You’ll feel good about yourself; I guarantee it.

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