Discussion about this post

User's avatar
JustAnOgre's avatar

I think the natural selection argument - which is the best one as it is obvious - is not well addressed. Basically if the laws of pp do not allow pp harmony, there is no zebra. Nothing evolves beyond plants. Doing stuff in the environment requires knowing about it.

Furthermore, the pp laws are not such an abstract thing, they are very concrete neural structures and organs, which started very simply, and I think biology has a pretty accurate idea of how the first animals came to be. I personally don't, but my guess is that the first animals had to be almost plants, they just had one very simple way to move and one a very. very simple organ and neuron structure that just made the e.g. move in the general direction of something. Once this extremely simple, say five neuron stuff was there, once it was possible to get the faintest clue about the environment and to interact with it in some very feeble basic way, of course this was a killer feature compared to being a vegetable and evolution optimized the living crap out of it.

I googled around a bit, these seem to be one of the first animals: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ctenophora it seems they have a small number of mental states, mental not being the right word here as there is no central brain, just a nerve ring, anyhow they have a small number of states of detecting something about their environment and a small number of reactions, one species can perform three kinds of movements. There had to be something simpler than this, but the point is, their pp laws and pp harmony are entirely mapped in clear biological terms, this sensor hits that neuron that pull this muscle and so on. Arguably they can be called mindless machines that react automatically, so at this point we cannot really talk about psychological states. What I am trying to say is that the sensor input - muscle output sequence that is the essence of animalhood does not even need to have initially psychological states. But it started somewhere like this and then evolved into brains and nervous systems and psychological states.

Expand full comment
Ape in the coat's avatar

T: Well, this rule carries over to the psychophysical realm. If the psychophysical laws didn’t allow for psychophysical harmony, it could never have been selected for. Conceivably, there could’ve been zillions of ways that the psychophysical laws could have been such that they would never have allowed psychophysical harmony to be selected for.

A: Haven't you just conceded your point, then?

T: What? How?

A: Well, previously we were talking about how surprising it is that psychophysical harmony *actually exists*. Now you've switched to talking about how surprising it is that psychophysical harmony is merely *allowed to exist as one of many possibilities*. The latter is much less surprising than the former. If you had to do it, it means that evolution has just explained away a huge chunk of the surprise.

T: So you are saying... that evolution reduced the improbability of psychophysical harmony actually being the case to improbability of psychophysical harmony being one of many possibilities, and this was your point to begin with?

A: Exactly!

T: (looks mournful, then immediately perks up) Wait, but mere possibility of psychophysical harmony is also quite surprising on naturalism!

A: On the contrary. It would be surprising if laws just arbitrary happened to specifically prohibit psychophysical harmony as a mere possibility. Like the laws of physics not allowing you to write a very specific message, in particular, on a bunch of crystals, in order to prank an alien civilization.

T: But, conceivably, there could’ve been zillions of ways that the psychophysical laws could have been such that they would never have allowed psychophysical harmony to be selected for.

A: And conceivably there could be *zillions of zillions* of ways that laws allow such harmony. Restricting something specific a much narrower target in the space of possibilities, than merely allowing it.

T: Okay this dialogue really didn't go the direction I thought it would. I need to think about this evolution objection more

A: Be my guest! Here is some light reading material that can help you get the concept better: https://www.lesswrong.com/s/MH2b8NfWv22dBtrs8.

Expand full comment
3 more comments...

No posts

Ready for more?